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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 2:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

This is probably going to cost me, but what the hell, I can't stay silent on something I feel this strongly about. Normally I try to shy away from any non-music related discussions on this board, but given the gravity of the VA Tech situation--only the latest, it may take another 3 years or however long, but there WILL be another incident like it--I must weigh in and suffer the slings and arrows that may come.

I listen to the BBC at work every morning, and only there will you hear discussion of what SHOULD be discussed in American media and by politicians in this country, but will not be: Why is a nation that suffers 11,000 gun-related deaths every year--FAR MORE per capita than any other civilized industrial nation--completely closed to any idea of curbing gun ownership? Not even semi-automatic weapons (like the semi automatic 9mm used in this latest travesty) are considered.

Great Britain (as the BBC pointed out) suffers some 100-200 gun related deaths a year....a VA Tech student from South Korea was interviewed and said where he comes from gun ownership is not allowed and to him, this American right to own instant killing machines (as he called them) is what mystifies him most about the US. The reporter then asked him if he thought gun control would ever be brought up in the aftermath of this tragedy and he just chuckled cynically and said "no, of course not."

Since the Port Arthur murders in Tazmania in Australia a few years back, (1996) extremely stricter gun laws were put in place. People adjusted, and since, gun related deaths have fallen more than 150%.

In the days to come, the predictable cycle of news reports will go like this: prayer vigils, anger over why VA Tech didn't "get the word out" between the 1st and 2nd shooting incidents, what can we do to make schools safer (more security on campus, gun metal detectors)...but NO ONE, least of all the gutless politicians on BOTH SIDES of the aisle will have the integrity (b/c the polls say it's political suicide) to AT LEAST RAISE THE QUESTION of whether or not guns--ESPECIALLY SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS--should be made so readily available to human beings, who, it can not be disputed, are prone to violence.

Yes, I know what the 2nd amendment to the Constitution says. I personally believe that in the late 1700's when it was put in, it was necessary b/c EVERYONE IN THE COLONIES was basically needed to protect against the British, hence the population WAS the militia. I DO NOT BELIEVE that if Tom Jefferson and the rest took a look at the weapons traded freely at gun shows in states like VA (no background checks, required, no waiting period, one gun per MONTH being the only restirction) that they would say "yep--that's just what we intended."

You can have your own opinions on guns. Of course. Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you want. But in the days to follow this tragedy the fact that gun control will not even be a blip on the national radar of discussion is-in some ways-- as equal a tragedy. The rest of the world watches and shakes their heads, wondering what our obsession with guns is all about.

I share in their sadness, and yes, disgust.

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Poster: Edsel Date: Apr 17, 2007 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

"Since the Port Arthur murders in Tazmania in Australia a few years back, (1996) extremely stricter gun laws were put in place. People adjusted, and since, gun related deaths have fallen more than 150%."

Hummm...... half the people who were victims of gun related deaths have come back to life, so, there you have it, gun control laws are directly responsible for zombies.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 11:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

The percentage rate has to do with the incidence of reduced gun related violence, not--as you probably realize, but don't feel like acknowledging--the number of people who died or "came back to life."

If you don't like the figures b/c they don't coincide with your view on guns, take it up with the Brady Center and the BBC, where you will find the statistics all in order and verifiable.

But I suppose you never let the facts get in the way of an entrenched point of view.

This post was modified by grendelschoice on 2007-04-17 18:50:07

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Poster: BryanE Date: Apr 17, 2007 5:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

That whole "in order to maintain a well-regulated militia" thing always seems to get overlooked, doesn't it?

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 6:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

sure does.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Apr 17, 2007 7:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

although as soon as rasta reads this, you'll be sure to get a hearty rebuttal - NO WAY! Read >>

Good thing those Jews, Christians, Gypsy's etc that Hitler rounded up, were all first disarmed. Otherwise, gun violence would have been up. BAD GUN!
I look forward to living in a world were only Big Brother and crimminals have guns, at least gun violence will go down.....well, at least regular citizen gun violence....BAD GUN!!!!
Your well thought out arguments have turned my views around, thank you! BAD GUN!!!! Also, campus security (mostly off duty police) should not be allowed to carry weapons. Oooops, sorry, thats already the SOP on MANY campuses.
BAD GUN!!! Thank you for opening my eye's!

Now let's get to work on knives, spears, arrows, stones, bombs and whatever else nutcakes and crimminals kill people with. We know we can control those people bent on obtaining weapons. See? I'm coming around and seeing the errors of my cowboy mentality. Thank you! -BAD GUN!!!

Now I'm working on why Bush was actively behind the shotings.
Now, "Let's Roll!" BADS GUN!

Also, good thing those well informed Brit's and Euro's know so much about the why's of gun violence here! I'm sure the murder rate of innocent people will go down after they are all disarmed. And we all know all crimminals won't be able to legally obtain guns-at least they will be breaking Big Brothers laws, and thats what counts. BAD GUN!


This post was modified by rastamon on 2007-04-17 14:29:55

This post was modified by rastamon on 2007-04-17 14:37:42

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Apr 17, 2007 7:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

Those giant metal bullets with spinner rims and leather seats that kill thousands need to be stopped as well. Then the brain needs to be removed from all the people because that is were violence is. Pol Pot can fix this problem.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Apr 17, 2007 8:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

Did'nt Pol Pot disarm the citizens first?
At least those common innocent folks were not killing others, just the government...whew! I am relieved!

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 8:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

No surprise here.

Of course, at no point did I say that police or campus security should not be armed.

Since you had no intention if actually reading my argument, you have no conception of the ridiculousness of arguing "slippery slope" that knives or cars will follow for bans since they "also kill."

Point is that guns--as the student pointed out in the BBC interview--are INSTANT killing machines. It takes a lot more work o kill someone with a car or a knife, or a blunt instrument. Which is exactly why other societies older than our own came to realize long ago that since a) people are violent, then b) it should be made as difficult as possible for said people to kill each other.

Banning guns in those other socities has accomplished that feat. The statistics are undeniable. There simply is no other civilized industrial nation that even approaches our per capita gun-related death total each year.

Now why is that? Are Britons, Frenchmen, Canadians, Nords, Japanese,and Russians and Slavs all simply more intelligent, more compassionate, less violent than we Americans? Of course not. They have less access to instant killing machines, and so the death toll is far less.

Nor did I say anywhere that I would ban all guns. I actually am very much in favor of hunter's rights, and even some handgun ownership.

But I've yet to come across a hunter worth his or her salt who needs an uzi or a semi automatic to take down a deer, and if you do, you're a pretty pathetic "hunter."

If you're arguing that Americans should have unfettered access to semi automatic weapons, with no background checks, waiting periods, or limits on the number of such weapons they can own, then you are arguing for a modern day equivalent of the wild west when everyone was armed disputes were "solved" in the streets with gun fights and nothing else, and the fastest draw reigned supreme.

Hey, if that's the America you want to live in, have fun. You're halfway there anyway.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Apr 17, 2007 9:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

I so agree with you...BAD GUNS!
btw, is your handle, grendelschoice the one in Beowulf?
I (tried) to read that in a Humanities college class

This post was modified by rastamon on 2007-04-17 16:24:10

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

I tried to read Beowulf in high school (it was required) but couldn't get thru the thick olde English....but always thought it was a cool story (John Gardner wrote a great updated version of the story called---easily enough--"Grendel"....it's told from the monster's point of view...much easier read!

(Grendel is my dog's name...the "choice" is a riff on "Bear'sChoice"...one of my earliest and still favorite Dead albums).



This post was modified by grendelschoice on 2007-04-17 18:22:16

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Apr 17, 2007 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

Actually, I had to do fingerprints and get a background check by the FBI to get my concealed weapon permit so I doubt government regulations can keep the whackos and criminals from getting guns. No mass murderer that I have heard goes through all that when they can get them on the black market. DC has the strictest gun control laws and look at their gun crime rate. The disease of crime is organic and is not created in a machine shop. If not guns it would be knives, if not knives clubs, if not clubs rocks, if not rocks bare hands. The problem is human not machine, animal and not mineral. The police should have shut down the school after the first shooting, perid. They should have also posted a squad car in clear site in the middle of the campus. That didn't happen and now a page 3 story is a world headline, sad but preventable without changing the constitution.

This post was modified by Telephone Toughguy on 2007-04-17 16:27:57

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Poster: rastamon Date: Apr 17, 2007 9:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

I sealed in grease and buried, watertight-an AK47 & M16 and a couple of pineapples that I easily returned from SEAsia in 1969- No handguns though.
(also brought back a speaker full of weed-that lasted thru 1971, boy did we party!)
If the shit really hits the fan, I'll dig that up, otherwise, peace on!

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

TT--

Couldn't agree more, re: human beings being violent and always weanting to kill each other somehow.
But that is exactly my point. Semi-automatic weapons make it much easier to do so and in greater numbers in a short amount of time.

You may WANT to kill as many people with a rock or a knife, but you'll find it a lot harder to kill as many as with a rapid fire weapon that pumps bullets into your victims in a matter of seconds.

I do believe people have the right to defend themselves and find it hard to argue that a small or elderly person wanting to protect their home shouldn't be allowed to own a handgun for that purpose, but when we get into "gun nut" territory where the refusal of banning or regulating ANY weapons, no matter how absurd the level of killing power, I have a real problem.

Again--hunters, responsible gun owners who take safety courses and allow for a fair waiting period and background check--fine with me, even if I myself choose not to go that route.

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Poster: JamminJerome Date: Apr 17, 2007 3:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

thanks for this...I agree!

although as soon as rasta reads this, you'll be sure to get a hearty rebuttal

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 17, 2007 3:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dose of reality

..perfectly fine if that's the case. Because half my point is that the debate should at least be had. To not discuss it at all is pure folly.

I'm already hearing the network news reports and to this point it's all about what VA Tech did wrong. Unbelievable.

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